MINORS IN BARS

[pk]

Passing a law to prohibit pregnant woman from drinking would be another example of the elected government telling us how to live our life. A parent must take responsibility, and suffer the consequences of their behavior, just like the rest of us.

In a way this is where many people get it wrong. You are so caught up on the 'elected government' telling us how to live our life...that you are forgetting the most important thing that most laws are put into place for...to help ensure our safety and to make our lives more orderly to where people aren't harming others...And that is the big thing in your statement when you say that parents must take responsibility and suffer the consequences of their behavior! But let's get really into this statement...EXACTLY WHO IS SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES?? Not the parent. The innocent child! So shouldn't the law step in when the parent is not taken responsibility to the life of someone else?

If the child was already born and the parent left the child in a locked car so the parent could run into a store, or a bar, or do something and the child suffers from the heat....the law would step in and say the parent was neglectful.

But yet the mother is pouring what has been proven to be poisen to the unborn child and nothing happens? This is wrong. And no, it's not the parent that is suffering....it's the poor baby. The baby will grow up with many different possible side affects, birth defects, mental defects due to this mother. Is this fair to the innocent baby that did not ask for a life like this?

Where was the protection to this child when the child couldn't do anything to help him/herself? Where was the protection for this child when the parent decided to be neglectful and harm the baby?

But yet so many people are against laws to protect the innocoent from neglectful mothers that are not thinking of the safety of the child but of themselves. When the mother is not able to protect then someone needs to stand up for the innocent. And we should not be so worried about the 'system' getting to tell us yet another thing we can't do.

The innocent needs our help and our protection one way or another. And to me it is our duty to see the the best we can do for the innocent child is in place. If that takes away a little freedom to bend the arm at a bar..so be it. The mother made the choice when she decided to have the baby to be responsible for the child. If she won't something needs to be in place to protect the child. Simple as that.

Wow..I'll get off my soapbox now.

pk

[pk]

Sometimes things just strike me. This is one of those topics that does it. Not that anyone one post or poster got me going, but.....

As a society (a term I usually hate) we need to make up our mind. If a pregnant women drinks she's harming an innocent baby. If she decides to have an abortion, it's her body.

Which is it?

Good question. But I just got down from my soapbox so I'll let someone else take this one. :?

[MrKhay]

Originally Posted by pk

In a way this is where many people get it wrong. You are so caught up on the 'elected government' telling us how to live our life...that you are forgetting the most important thing that most laws are put into place for...to help ensure our safety and to make our lives more orderly to where people aren't harming others...And that is the big thing in your statement when you say that parents must take responsibility and suffer the consequences of their behavior! But let's get really into this statement...EXACTLY WHO IS SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES?? Not the parent. The innocent child! So shouldn't the law step in when the parent is not taken responsibility to the life of someone else?

If the child was already born and the parent left the child in a locked car so the parent could run into a store, or a bar, or do something and the child suffers from the heat....the law would step in and say the parent was neglectful.

But yet the mother is pouring what has been proven to be poisen to the unborn child and nothing happens? This is wrong. And no, it's not the parent that is suffering....it's the poor baby. The baby will grow up with many different possible side affects, birth defects, mental defects due to this mother. Is this fair to the innocent baby that did not ask for a life like this?

Where was the protection to this child when the child couldn't do anything to help him/herself? Where was the protection for this child when the parent decided to be neglectful and harm the baby?

But yet so many people are against laws to protect the innocoent from neglectful mothers that are not thinking of the safety of the child but of themselves. When the mother is not able to protect then someone needs to stand up for the innocent. And we should not be so worried about the 'system' getting to tell us yet another thing we can't do.

The innocent needs our help and our protection one way or another. And to me it is our duty to see the the best we can do for the innocent child is in place. If that takes away a little freedom to bend the arm at a bar..so be it. The mother made the choice when she decided to have the baby to be responsible for the child. If she won't something needs to be in place to protect the child. Simple as that.

Wow..I'll get off my soapbox now.

pk

Passing laws costs money. Money is already spent on schools, where I recall learning in biology class that alcohol will damage a fetus. It's simply a matter of practicing what you already know. If a mother has a deformed child, and the deformities are caused by alcohol use by the mother during pregnancy, then she should be charged with a crime, or put to death.

[pk]

If a mother has a deformed child, and the deformities are caused by alcohol use by the mother during pregnancy, then she should be charged with a crime, or put to death

So correct me if I'm wrong but the mother should be charged after the innocent child suffers life long damages, even though as you say it has been shown that drinking while pregnant will and does cause damage to an unborn fetus.

That's kinda like we know you are harming the child but we have to wait until the child comes out and proves the mom did something wrong? But of course little baby, since we did not protect you at the time of watching the mom poisen you, you will now have to live with the problems while the mom may or may not be held accountable. After all laws cost money and the life of a child is not worth the bucks. Let's just hope the mom didn't flunk out of school and miss the biology class since money was spent on this class...of course she could always then say she should not be held accountable since she didn't pass the class.

Another thought...if they then arrest the mother because the laws cost money so there was nothing in place to help the child BEFORE he/she became deformed etc...I wonder who will take care of the baby when the mom is sitting in prison?

ummmm doesn't it cost a whole bunch to pay for every person in prison? And doesn't it cost a whole bunch for the state to provide for a child without a parent? and of course..doesn't it cost a whole bunch if the child is a special needs child?

Seems to me a simple law that cost some is better than all the money that it will cost later when the damage is done.

sorry, just my thoughts.

pk

[MrKhay]

Originally Posted by pk

So correct me if I'm wrong but the mother should be charged after the innocent child suffers life long damages, even though as you say it has been shown that drinking while pregnant will and does cause damage to an unborn fetus.

That's kinda like we know you are harming the child but we have to wait until the child comes out and proves the mom did something wrong? But of course little baby, since we did not protect you at the time of watching the mom poisen you, you will now have to live with the problems while the mom may or may not be held accountable. After all laws cost money and the life of a child is not worth the bucks. Let's just hope the momdidn't flunk out of school and miss the biology class since money was spent on this class...of course she could always then say she should not be held accountable since she didn't pass the class.

Another thought...if they then arrest the mother because the laws cost money so there was nothing in place to help the child BEFORE he/she became deformed etc...I wonder who will take care of the baby when the mom is sitting in prison?

ummmm doesn't it cost a whole bunch to pay for every person in prison? And doesn't it cost a whole bunch for the state to provide for a child without a parent? and of course..doesn't it cost a whole bunch if the child is a special needs child?

Seems to me a simple law that cost some is better than all the money that it will cost later when the damage is done.

sorry, just my thoughts.

pk

You can't legislate common sense. Passing a bill into law won't stop the problem. There are many examples of this. There are laws against drunk driving and folks still do it. There are laws against stealing. Folks still do it. The list goes on.
Sure, common sense isn't taught, aka critical thinking. That has to be something that's just learned. What can be taught is the effects alcohol has on a fetus. Lessons can be learned, and lessons should come from the schools.
Education is the key.

[j10asen]

This Topic could open a huge can of beans!!!

I just do not fathom anyone harming themselves or someone else this way but it happenes everyday.
I do not think there is a law ( exisiting or to be written) that would stop it. Just look at alll those that drink and drive even after losing their license.
You have seen this drama played out in the news recently, a bicyclist killed, a pedeatrian embeded in a windsheild and parked in a garage.

If these people want to drink they will drink and nothing, absolutely nothing will stop them them. Their vision does not go beyond the next drink, there is NO THOUGHT BEYOND THAT DRINK( or other mind altering substance)!

We can put them in jail and that will not stop others from doing the same.

In the name of cost , how far will we go? Who will determine when a birth defect is caused by the mother/father?

Does this go on to include birth defects by polution?
Working in a dangeruos environment?
Family history?

How about those known have issues before birth? Should the state come in and demand abortion, to save money?

The whole idea makes me shudder!!!

One final word, talk to people with special needs children. I would be willing to bet that more have found gratitude and blessings than the agony of the daily trials they experience.
Life is difficult we all know that. As much as we all want smooth sailing we are never handed a challange more difficult than we can handle.

i am not angel
nor am i a saint
life though rose colored glasses
i would much rather paint

help from all to those in need
could diminish our hunger
and our greed

compassion not pity
hope not hate
share what you have
before it's too late

lend your hand
give a wink and smile
life is too short
to live with denial

stoney rohde

[pk]

Yes, education is the key. Perhaps it should be a mandatory punishment for those that can't stop drinking for the sake of the innocent child that they are required to sit through weekly educational classes showing the effects of drinking on the fetus. Perhaps this would be an excellent idea for all high schools to offer a section in all their health courses to really hit this subject hard.

To sit back and say, yea, there's a law against this or that and people do it anyways is easy to say. But it doesn't make it right.

We know there are those that will act out wrong anyways no matter how much laws are put into place but we at least can think about this and take precautions. Can the unborn child?

When I get into my car and drive especially at night, I take the knowing risk that I could be shot by a drive by, or hit by a drunk, or jumped if I walk down the road. I know these things and of course take precautions by not going into bad sections of town, or walk down dark alleys. We as adults take precautions with the added knowledge in every day life that something can come at us in any direction any time because of some careless, selfish, person doing something wrong. We do our best to take precautions, and go on with life. If something bad happens to anyone of us it is a tragic event but we mentally always knew it could happen. But the unborn child doesn't know and can't prepare for it.

Can a innocent unborn child protect him/herself? Can an unborn child take precautions? Can an unborn child move aside when he/she sees the mom drinking? NO. So it's up to adults to take care of the child.

Yes, a mom can and will still drink even with laws, education, etc if she still wants to and that is the way it will always be. But who's to say if there wasn't stronger enforcable laws, better education in the early classrooms, if maybe even one mom may take notice and say NO to drinking? Even saving one child is worth that isn't it?

[pk]

How about those known have issues before birth? Should the state come in and demand abortion, to save money?

A life is a life and no the state has no right to enforce an abortion on birth defects.

All I am trying to say is we owe it to the unborn child to give them as much protection as they deserve from mothers that simply are not able to help themselves with drugs or drinking to ensure a safe environment for the fetus. The baby has no defense, they are helpless.

I'm trying to save children not advocate to kill them because of birth defects.

Heck, no one is perfect so in some way we may all been born with some defect. lol

[pk]

One final word, talk to people with special needs children. I would be willing to bet that more have found gratitude and blessings than the agony of the daily trials they experience.
Life is difficult we all know that. As much as we all want smooth sailing we are never handed a challange more difficult than we can handle.

I had a cousin that we all loved. She was mentally challenged. It was not thought she would live past teens but she actually lived on into her 20's.

She was a blessing to her family.

But why she was born this way certainly was not put on her by a mother that poured drinks down her throat putting her at risk. What really happened was just something no one will ever know. It happened.

The thing is that birth defects happen all the time. They happen to wonderful people. But they happen for many reasons..but would it not be wonderful if we could step in and at least stop some helpless child that could be born normally by putting forth effort to stop the mom from drinking?

Now I have a couple of questions...

why am I the only 'mom' here? lol

and wasn't this suppose to be about minors in bars??

:?

pk

[AJE]

Anyone know a CRACK BABY? When I was a teen several years ago while visiting family friends, I happened to meet such a child whom was the direct result of a neglectful mother. She didn't care about harming the unborn child only about her getting a fix. Drugs are Drugs Point Blank and Alcohol is a Drug, whatever is consumed, sniffed or used while a woman is with child will go directly to the fetus...thanks PK.

Anyway this boy of 8 years wouldn't stop bouncing off the walls, couldn't stay still for even a minute... his foster mom sent him for timeout (what good that did, the boy could not control his behavior thus in the corner began screaming). Thank you mommy for doing cocaine, this innocent child I felt so sorry for him knowing he'll be permanently scarred as the result of illicit behavior.

The bartender is a tough case simply because of lawsuits. For me not sure what I’d do or feel excellent debate folks.

[ONEZ48]

(Quote)Let's just hope the mom didn't flunk out of school and miss the biology class since money was spent on this class...of course she could always then say she should not be held accountable since she didn't pass the class.


Ethics! Good, Bad, Right, Wrong! We are tought these (or used to be).
I feel for the bartenders I would have done the same. The mother of the unborn should have used her head! Oh yah to worried about getting drunk! I have two words... Stupid B*tch. (sorry)
I was pregnent twice and not once did I have thoughts of partying with my friends, my problem was I drank to much soda and that is not good for the unborn either.

[pk]

I drank to much soda and that is not good for the unborn either.

It was so funny that each time I was pregnant I knew right away since I could not drink pop! I normally am addicted to pop but not when I was going to have a baby. lol

Guess it was my body just making sure I kept the little ones safe.

pk