This is funny. The big unions that love Obama and his Health plan, are finding out it's going to cost them money. Now they don't like it so much. How can anyone not know that "tax the rich" means tax everyone when a Liberal says it.
This isn't funny. The way the feds pay for health care is to just pass off the cost to the States. Remember Obama saying he wouldn't sign anything that adds one cent to the deficit? This is how it's done. I can see them patting themselves on the back already for "paying for it". Obama's just another typical big spending politician folks.
Wow, classic Obama. When you're out of ideas and can not lead, set-up a photo-op.
They actually handed out white coats in order to get the image they wanted. Cherry picked doctors dressed up by the White House.
What did this whole fiasco prove? Did you learn anything about the actual legislations going through congress? Nope, it's all about image, no substance. Maybe he should've went the to the storage shed and pulled out his Greek columns again. They think very little of you or your intelligence. You should be insulted.
"Just put him in front of a camera and they'll fall for him". That's what the handlers think. They should've learned from the Olympic fiasco.
Here's a calculator to determine what the new Obamacare will cost you. You have to choose one of several bills out there now. But it'll give you an idea.
For example, if you're a single 50 year old adult making 50,000 per year, and you choose the House bill from the Energy and Commerce committee, it'll cost you $5428 per year for the government plan.
Tort reform (ambulance chasing lawyer reform), will save 54 billion dollars. But it's not in any Health Care reform bill. Obama specifically told the AMA he wasn't interested in Tort reform either.
Massachusetts has "universal" health care. All the plans moving through congress are modeled after this State. So Massachusetts is a good indicator of what will happen with the "health care for all" plan for the entire country.
I wasn't sure if I should put this in the "stimulus facts" thread or this one. I chose this one.
Obama and Democrat leaders are trying to convince you that they can pay for National health care by, partly, saving a half a trillion (or so) dollars by getting rid of "waste, fraud and abuse" in the current system.
How many of you think that the government is capable of cleaning up waste, fraud and abuse?
Together, fake or faulty claims for the $8,000 refundable tax credit may have cost the government up to half a billion dollars so far, investigators told the Ways and Means subcommittee.
End quote.
BTW, Obama wants to extend this program because it's working so well.
If that kind of story comes out over this one little program, what do you think will happen when they take over 15-20% of the entire economy?
__________________ There is precedent for the mainstream media being megaphones for Democratic-manufactured hysteria. George Will
Today, there is a name for the political doctrine that rejoices in scarcity of everything except government. The name is environmentalism. George Will
I wasn't sure if I should put this in the "stimulus facts" thread or this one. I chose this one.
Obama and Democrat leaders are trying to convince you that they can pay for National health care by, partly, saving a half a trillion (or so) dollars by getting rid of "waste, fraud and abuse" in the current system.
How many of you think that the government is capable of cleaning up waste, fraud and abuse?
They create it, they don't clean it up.
Waste, fraud and abuse happen, in private industry and in government. Our job is to do our best with what we have. We're fortunate in this country that bribes and patronage aren't systemic as they are in many other places in the world at every level of government. Most members of both parties, citizens and politicians, are taken aback by waste, fraud and abuse.
There would be a great deal more waste, fraud and abuse without good government intervention, in my opinion. The waste of lives unrealized if not for government stepping in to stop Jim Crow laws and child labor abuses, for example.
President Obama is trying to set policy to give us universal health care coverage in a way that is affordable. Will some people try to scam the system? Of course. Those are people scamming the system - not the government.
By the way, the two largest increases in the size of government in the last 30 years have come from Republican administrations, Presidents Reagan and W. Bush.
Together, fake or faulty claims for the $8,000 refundable tax credit may have cost the government up to half a billion dollars so far, investigators told the Ways and Means subcommittee.
End quote.
From the same article:
"Among the solutions witnesses recommended: Requiring additional documentation from homebuyers; reviewing applications sooner; and creating a minimum age for applicants. There is currently no law limiting the age of tax credit recipients. "
There is a loophole. Likely not intended.
If I could afford to do the same for a child, I might take advantage of the loophole, too. If a parent, through their four year-old, buys a home, they are still adding a stimulus effects to the economy, from the multiplier effect of the money spent to preventing housing prices from cratering to strengthening neighborhoods by not leaving homes abandoned. Those silver linings are worth consideration in a thread in which most of what we hear is that the sky is falling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfarm
BTW, Obama wants to extend this program because it's working so well.
If that kind of story comes out over this one little program, what do you think will happen when they take over 15-20% of the entire economy?
If, indeed, there is a half billion dollars of waste, fraud and abuse in this program, that will represent about 5% of the dollars devoted to the program. Another way of looking at it is that it is 95% effective.
The reference to what will happen when they "take over 15-20 % of the entire economy?" is about health care I take it. First, they won't "take over" - they'll provide options. Will some private individuals and companies try to scam the system? No doubt. Many try doing the same against private companies now. Nevertheless, I believe our government can and will be 95% effective in reaching the goal of universal access to quality health care.
Here's a shocker, I agree with almost everything you said. But you miss the point. Paying for about half of the trillion (if not more) dollar health care plan is supposedly going to come from "savings" in waste fraud and abuse.
You believe that? I don't. Therefore, there's a huge shortfall in funding right out of the gate. So count on hundreds of billions in more taxes that will have to come on top of any new taxes to pay for this.
I'm just saying, be realistic when it comes to government saving 500 billion from simply "cleaning up" our current system.
__________________ There is precedent for the mainstream media being megaphones for Democratic-manufactured hysteria. George Will
Today, there is a name for the political doctrine that rejoices in scarcity of everything except government. The name is environmentalism. George Will
I bring these things up because I would like an honest debate on this issue. I don't believe we are currently being honest.
Here's why:
"Health Care Reform" turned into "Health Insurance Reform" when Obama needed a villian to personalize the battle. Doctors can be a villian, but that'll backfire. Remember the comments about tonsils and feet being removed for profit? Hospitals and Drug Companies can be villians, and are to a certain extent, but he needs them too.
Insurance companies are big nameless faceless money gouging scum that everyone can hate. Yes they have problems, but the debate is not honest.
What have you been hearing for monthes? Insurance company profits are through the roof while people are dropping dead for lack of coverage. That's the basic message.
Remove the "profit motive" (insurance companies) and everything gets cheaper and better. That's the other basic message.
We need a public option to keep insurance companies "honest".
In the health care debate, Democrats and their allies have gone after insurance companies as rapacious profiteers making "immoral" and "obscene" returns while "the bodies pile up."
Ledgers tell a different reality. Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That's anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones.
Profits barely exceeded 2 percent of revenues in the latest annual measure. This partly explains why the credit ratings of some of the largest insurers were downgraded to negative from stable heading into this year, as investors were warned of a stagnant if not shrinking market for private plans.
Insurers are an expedient target for leaders who want a government-run plan in the marketplace. Such a public option would force private insurers to trim profits and restrain premiums to compete, the argument goes. This would "keep insurance companies honest," says President Barack Obama.
End quote.
As I've said from the beginning, we should do 3 things first that cost nothing and continue from there.
1. Lawsuit reform. That's where all those extra tests come from. But when the Lawyers give hundreds of millions of dollars to politicians (about 75% Democrat) it's no wonder nothing is done even though this alone can save 50 billion. Lawyers / Law Firms: Long-Term Contribution Trends | OpenSecrets
2. State Mandate reform. Thousands of Mandates drive up the costs of all insurance. All those monopolies everyone is talking about is because of the States and their interference. You can't get a simple, cheap, bare bones catastrophic plan because of all the Mandates.
3. Reform illegal immigrant coverage. Too political to even touch.
None of those items cost a dime. Yet it's not even discussed. Comman Sense tells each and every one of you that these 3 simple items would save hundres of billions of dollars. But all we can talk about is profits from insurance companies and keeping them honest.
I'll add one more, Medicare/Medicaid reform. Prove you can fix that first before you ruin the rest of it.
Medicare/Medicaid underpays all it's bills. Doctors and Hospitals pass off that cost to insurance too. Drives up everyones premiums.
If Insurance ends up going away (or get's severely controlled), who's going to cover the costs that illegals and the government currently run up?
You and me via taxes.
Those are honest facts to debate.
__________________ There is precedent for the mainstream media being megaphones for Democratic-manufactured hysteria. George Will
Today, there is a name for the political doctrine that rejoices in scarcity of everything except government. The name is environmentalism. George Will
kmfarm come on. Insurance companies and profits. I read that they make 300 billion a year JUST in profits. What does that come out to in ten years?
We need a public option for the American people! Every American needs health care period!
Did I stoke your fire just a little? Care to take a potshot at me? Bring it on boy.
Don't take your anger out on forums like the Bubbler. Why not join me for a friendly American game. Are you up for a challenge? Can you handle it?
Download the game and lets meet for a friendly game. You can take your anger out on me if you can or I'll put you in your place!
kmfarm come on. Insurance companies and profits. I read that they make 300 billion a year JUST in profits.
Really? Where? I'd like to see it.
I just made a big long post about having an honest debate and the very first response is just plain wrong on facts again.
Find me that source and I'll admit I'm wrong and never put another post on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kens Digital Media
We need a public option for the American people! Every American needs health care period!
I don't disagree that everyone should be able to get affordable care. The issue I have is how we get there. A public option is the first step to government takeover. That's been established by a variety of politicians in office including the HHS secretary, Barney Frank and Obama himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kens Digital Media
Did I stoke your fire just a little? Care to take a potshot at me? Bring it on boy.
Nope, you don't bother me. The only potshot I would take (if I were inclined, which I'm not) is that I find it funny that you don't post anything until Keith does. You need someone to lead for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kens Digital Media
Don't take your anger out on forums like the Bubbler. Why not join me for a friendly American game. Are you up for a challenge? Can you handle it?
I have no anger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kens Digital Media
Download the game and lets meet for a friendly game. You can take your anger out on me if you can or I'll put you in your place!
You probably would put me in my place in a game. But I don't play games. It's not me.
kmfarm, I'll get back to you on this, I'm watching a movie.
And yes I have an answer for each of your responses.
Download the America's Army Game!
You served in the armed forces didn't you? Your a true republican, I mean American right? Show us what you learned and kick my butt. When it comes to politics I'm your enemy, Im a democrat. Hunt me down and get me, if you can.
Maybe your chicken or a puff of hot air. Bring out your true colors kmfarm, protect what you believe in and beat me in an American game approved by the American Government called America's Army 3
Remember kmfarm, your friend Bush started this War, not the Democrats.
Geez, I get so tired of repeating myself. But...........
No, I'm not a republican. I'm an individual that holds his nose and "usually" votes republican hoping they just sit on their hands for their term.
If I listed every republican that angered me, I'd get carpal tunnel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kens Digital Media
Remember kmfarm, your friend Bush started this War, not the Democrats.
Ever get tired of being wrong? Bush started no war. NATO started that war based on United Nations resolutions. Just so happens that we supplied most of the power. Nothing new there.
Try not to conveniently forget that all your Democrat pals were in favor of that war when it started. But like typical Dem's, they lost their spine when it got a little tough. Then it became the Bush/Cheney war.
Revisionist history. I think it's taught in schools now.
I wish I could be with you when you search for your source on the 300 billion annual profits of insurance companies. But I get up in the morning for work.
Good luck finding that made up number.
__________________ There is precedent for the mainstream media being megaphones for Democratic-manufactured hysteria. George Will
Today, there is a name for the political doctrine that rejoices in scarcity of everything except government. The name is environmentalism. George Will
Health care costs rise every year and for the most part aways higher than the rate of inflation.
Every year fewer people are covered by private health insurance.
I can tell you that eight and a half years ago when my COBRA coverage ended that I tried to get private health coverage and was rejected and or laughed at. Every year more and more people are put in that situation. I was very lucky that after only a few months after my COBRA ended that I landed a job that coverered me without any limits on pre-existing conditions. That does not always happen.
Think of those who are older and lose their jobs, older people are less likely to find new employment. What will happen to them without a public option.
I personally feel this loss of insurance is directly related to loss of manufacturing over seas/off shore. Some how we need to take care of ourselves and yes it will cost. If the employer does not want to pay maybe we should consider taxing all companies to cover health insurance with double or tripple those that import versus manufacturer in the states.
One more thing I do not know what type of profit an insurance company makes but you definantely can see they build the most elaborate office buildings in the Fox River Valley. Second to that are the continual construction/additions to the Fox Valley Hospitals yet there is more day surgery now than ever. None of that makes sense to me.
All I can say is if we don't try more to help each other as the old saying goes "what goes around ,comes around" and instant Karma will get us.
I don't care what side of the isle you are on, sick is sick!
We need some more compassion and less greed!!
...Them's got ears, let them hear
Them's got eyes, let them see
Turn your eyes to the lord of the skies
Take this airline plane
It'll take you home again
I don't care what side of the isle you are on, sick is sick!
We need some more compassion and less greed!!
Good post. You're very passionate about the subject and brought some good points.
Here's my perpsective, I have had times in my life where I had no insurance and needed medical attention. I got billed. Took me a few years, but I paid them.
If you go back a few posts to where I lay out my 3 or 4 basic ideas for the start of true reform, you'll see that I'm trying to debate real solutions based on facts and not emotion. That's not to say that emotion is bad, but it shouldn't be the driving force of policy ideas.
The feeling that we need to take care of everyone is a noble cause, but not the best starting point.
Event the Baucus bill coming out of the Senate was going to leave 20 to 25 million still uninsured. It also did not have a public option. But it did cost a few hundred billion.
For what?
It took decades to get where we are. Maybe employee based insurance is the core problem. But that would be a nightmare to unwind.
Point is, if it took decades to get to this point, a single piece of legislation coming from a selfish power hungry, money grabbing government, won't fix it.
In case you missed some earlier posts, do some research on Massachussets and Maine. Both these States have plans almost identical to what the Fed's want to do.
It's not pretty.
__________________ There is precedent for the mainstream media being megaphones for Democratic-manufactured hysteria. George Will
Today, there is a name for the political doctrine that rejoices in scarcity of everything except government. The name is environmentalism. George Will
A great illustration on a public health care option
I really hate to nitpik, I'm not trying to fight, but that's not a video on the "public option". It's a video endorsing full government takeover. What's know as "single-payer.
Here's the rebuttel video. They're both over simplistic.
The videos are over-simplified by design. They're created with a viral "hook" in mind so a 20 minute video with exorbitant detail would not get the point across.
Argue all you like, our health care system is a shameful mess, and the US is home to some of the least healthy people relative to the country's overall wealth. The system won't fix itself, they've had the opportunity.
The videos are over-simplified by design. They're created with a viral "hook" in mind so a 20 minute video with exorbitant detail would not get the point across.
Argue all you like, our health care system is a shameful mess, and the US is home to some of the least healthy people relative to the country's overall wealth. The system won't fix itself, they've had the opportunity.
O.K. I'll be nice with a new member.
Please look back at any of my previous posts. You will see that I agree that we need fixes. I just disagree on what they are. I have been very specific on my ideas. I don't simply throw out vague generalities not based on facts.
Isn't anyone curious why it would take a piece of legislation that's 1500 (legal language) pages to do this? Ever wonder how many surprises will be in there?
We shall see. I have no illusions. This "reform" will pass. Then the fun begins.
Did you know that all the current bills don't kick in for 3 years? But the taxes and fees start right away. If's there's such a crisis, why would that be.
I'll let you in on the secret. It's so the CBO scoring looks better.
__________________ There is precedent for the mainstream media being megaphones for Democratic-manufactured hysteria. George Will
Today, there is a name for the political doctrine that rejoices in scarcity of everything except government. The name is environmentalism. George Will
You'll be nice to a new member? I've apparently found the keyboard warrior of these forums. I'm not going to go back and read a 5 page thread that consists by in large of your biased opinion on health care reform. To be frank, I care about your opinion about as much as you care about mine.
You can continue to cheer lead for a bloated inefficient health care system that excludes millions, and rips off millions of others. I on the other hand will support any change in the system knowing that the first shot will be full of flaws, and will require additional change.
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