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Old 04-16-2007, 08:36 AM   #1 (permalink)
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global warming & second hand smoke - Phony Science

More thought from the esteemed economist Walter E. Williams

A MINORITY VIEW
BY WALTER E. WILLIAMS
RELEASE: WEDNESDAY, APRIL 11, 2007, AND THEREAFTER

Phony Science and Public Policy

The public has become increasingly aware that the science behind manmade global warming is a fraud. But maybe Americans like bogus science in pursuit of certain public policy objectives. Let's look at it.

Many Americans find tobacco smoke to be a nuisance. Some find the odor offensive, and others have allergies or asthma that can be aggravated by smoking in their presence. There's little question that tobacco smoke causes these kinds of nuisances, but how successful would anti-smokers have been in a court of law, or public opinion, in achieving the kind of success they've achieved based on tobacco smoke being a nuisance?

A serious public health threat had to be manufactured, and in 1993 the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) stepped in to the rescue with their bogus environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) study that says secondhand tobacco smoke is a class A carcinogenic.

Why is it bogus? The EPA claimed that 3,000 Americans die annually from secondhand smoke, but there was a problem. They couldn't come up with that conclusion using the standard statistical 95 percent confidence interval. They lowered their study's confidence interval to 90 percent. That has the effect of doubling the margin of error and doubling the probability that mere chance explains those 3,000 deaths.

The Congressional Research Service (CRS) said, "Admittedly, it is unusual to return to a study after the fact, lower the required significance level, and declare its results to be supportive rather than unsupportive of the effect one's theory suggests should be present." The CRS was being kind. This kind of doctoring of research results would get a graduate student expelled from a university.

In 1998, the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer released the largest ever and best formulated study on ETS. The research project ran for 10 years and in seven European countries. The study, not widely publicized, concluded that no statistically significant risk existed for nonsmokers who either lived or worked with smokers.

During the late '90s, at a Washington affair, I had the occasion to be in the presence of an FDA official. I asked him whether he would approve of pharmaceutical companies employing EPA's statistical techniques in their testing of drug effectiveness and safety. He answered no. I ask my fellow Americans who are nonsmokers: Do you support the use of fraudulent science in your efforts to eliminate tobacco smoke nuisance in bars, restaurants, workplaces and hotels?

You say, "Okay, Williams, the science is bogus, but how do we nonsmokers cope with the nuisance of tobacco smoke?" My answer is that it all depends on whether you prefer liberty-oriented solutions to problems or those that are more tyranny-oriented.

The liberty-oriented solution has to do with private property rights, whereby the owner of property makes the decision whether he will allow smoking or not. If one is a nonsmoker, he just doesn't do business with a bar or restaurant where smoking is permitted. A smoker could exercise the same right if a bar or restaurant didn't permit smoking. Publicly owned places such as libraries, airports and municipal buildings, where ownership is ill defined, presents more of a challenge.

The tyranny-oriented solution is where one group uses the political system to forcibly impose its preferences on others. You might be tempted to object to the term "tyranny," but suppose you owned a restaurant where you did not permit smoking and smokers used the political system to create a law forcing you to permit smoking. I'm sure you'd deem it tyranny.

The public policy debate on smoking has been settled through bogus science. My question is, how willing are we to allow bogus science to be used in the pursuit of other public policy agendas, such as restrictions on economic growth, in the name of fighting global warming?
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/econo...07/policy.html
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Old 04-16-2007, 10:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't intend to get into a big debate on this issue but do have one thing I would like to point out in your comment:

Quote:
Many Americans find tobacco smoke to be a nuisance. Some find the odor offensive, and others have allergies or asthma that can be aggravated by smoking in their presence. There's little question that tobacco smoke causes these kinds of nuisances
You seem to like to refer to second hand smoke, or just tobacco smoke as a NUISANCE to some. I would love to see how you would feel if you were one of the people that have allergies or asthma that can be aggravated by a smoker...and then see if you would like to hear it called a 'nuisance' when your health is at stake. Sometimes it is good to put the other shoe on for awhile. It is much worse than just a mere 'nuisance' to many. It makes life miserable when you have smoke in your face when all you want to do is eat a lunch and you get sick or have an attack instead.

As aggressive as you are about defending your right to smoke, something tells me that if you someday decided to quit smoking you would be the kind to be aggressive then against smoking.

Not trying to start up an issue. Just trying to point out that it is much more than just a 'nuisance' to many thousands of people. It is a health problem to them. And I wish 'smokers' would stop and think about the fact that they are causing many people including young children to have to live with health issues and just be more considerate when fighting for their 'right' to smoke on everyone.

Just my thoughts. Not a debate.

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Old 04-25-2007, 10:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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:lol: I think you just proved Mr William's point pk.

ok, like patty, im not going to get into a debate over this. been there done that. Its getting old, and there is way to many millions involved now to ever reverse course on this issue.
(brb, smoke break)

i would just like to point out that many many people have known positively that the reports were falsified ( the scientists are on public record saying they were paid to find those results)and they( anti smoking activists) went ahead and push legislation through based using it as a justification anyways. unfortunitly i don't have a copy to post here, wouldn't matter if i did, people are going to believe what they want anyways.
(brb, smoke break)

i dont think the issue here is really smoking, this could be involving anything. if you give me enough money i could even come up with a report that says eating with a spoon causes cancer. i mean they did already prove that pot makes you gay, and milk is bad for you didnt they?
(brb, smoke break)

!!down with the filthy spoon eaters!! everyone should be allowed to eat with their fingers in peace from now on. join our national organization at soupslurpers.r.us!!
first were going to save Madison from the spoons people, then its on to Washington. where we plan to prove that the country should be spoon free. for the grand finally we plan to push forward with our master plan of declaring all members of the cult of the spork as terrorist. yeah. thats it.http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~jm703496/spork/#where
(brb, smoke break)

ok, enough joking around. i think the real issue is really bad science and the fact that a whole socioeconomic movement is based on it. this one issue may be in not only national but also the worldwide conscience at the moment. but there are many others that fly below the radar of the average citizen that also affect their day to day life.( have you ever looked at the list of things that are a health hazard, it list just about everything including air)
So here's my rant, accountants and activists should never be allowed full access to the scientists themselves. they should be working with out funding concerns or who is going to be using their studies to justify one view or another. the entire scientific community has somehow put itself up for sale and this has caused many distorted reports to be published. what makes me wonder though is that the next generation will build upon established data, and if that data is corrupt than what? then even the purest of intentions will create nothing but more corrupt data.
(brb, coffee break. lol i bet ya thought i would say smoke didnt ya.)

Its my personal opinion that this is why AIDS and some forms of cancer haven't been cured yet. its all about who is funding the study, not about what the study is supposed to be about.

if you dont believe me, then maybe i should fund a study to prove it. :roll:
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Old 04-26-2007, 01:11 AM   #4 (permalink)
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ok..I'm not going to debate this...there is no debate. I'm right, I'm correct, my thoughts are perfect. That's final.

lol lol just joking! Don't slam me now! lol lol

I do have to tell on rudedog...if you think he is joking when he (brb smoke break)...he's not! Try chatting with him online sometime..it's always...brb, smoke break....blah, blah. blah...brb smoke break...blah, blah. blah...brb smoke break...blah, blah..oops brb, coffee break..blah...oh...brb smoke break...I keep waiting for a brb potty break! but I think he just does that out by his poodle bushes when he is smoking out there. lol lol lol

oh, he is going to get me for this one! lol

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Old 04-26-2007, 01:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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oh..almost forgot..quite frankly I really do not care if you smoke and kill yourself early, or smoke and live a long life..not my business. All I care is when you see me coughing from a fit because I do that when I have smoke in my face, just be kind and turn another way...far away would be nice.

thanks
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Old 04-26-2007, 01:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I don't know if this applies or not but I am a non-smoker... I simply choose to go where I want. If I know that a place allows smoking I just don't go there. There are some places that I frequent that allow smoking that is my choice. While sometimes it is a "nusiance" I have to remember that I made the choice to go there. Personally I think that this issue has infringed on a lot of business owners civil rights. It would be like telling me that I can't have a beer in my own home. People will blah blah blah about it for some time I am sure... especially since it is becoming a state wide issue. Why don't we just agree do disagree... " Can't we all just get along."
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Old 04-26-2007, 01:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
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But being a non smoker don't ya just hate it when you want to go into a place to eat and you have to stand outside looking in and wondering if it is worth it because of all the smoke inside? I realize that smokers feel they have 'rights' and all that...but they certainly hate it when they stand outside looking in wondering if it's worth it to eat inside and not get to smoke at places that doesn't allow smoking.

So I don't know about other towns but I think Kenosha has a great idea. When you go into a place to eat, they ask you, smoking or not? If you say smoking they have a sectioned off place that you can go with a door or partition and others can choose to sit elsewhere...everyone is happy, happy. lol

As far as Rudedog goes though....whether he can smoke or not isn't always the issue...they ask him, will you behave or not and sit him closer to the the kitchen where they can keep an eye on him better. lol

no, just kidding...have to poke fun at rude. lol

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Old 04-26-2007, 05:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
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It used to be that just about everyplace had a smoking and Non-Smoking section. I think that worked great. I understand your point... I may be a little differant than others though. :wink:
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Old 04-28-2007, 01:13 AM   #9 (permalink)
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oh come on p.k. you know as well as anyone the reason they put me by the kitchen door has nothing to do with my smoking.
its because i make a good place to get rid of all the leftover scraps. :P
especially during a all you can eat fish fry.
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Old 04-29-2007, 08:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Here's a picture on the wall of the last place that didn't feed rudedog enough table scrapes...they took the picture while everyone was running out the door! They learned never to refuse him again!

down boy!

:lol:
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Old 04-29-2007, 08:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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stop exaggerating pk. you know that wasn't because of the table scraps.
that was the time they stuck me in the nonsmoking section because some great smoke out thing was going on, and the snobby waitress refused to give me a cup of coffee because i ask a simple question. "which great American do you want me to smoke out?". besides she had it coming. :lol:
she gives me free bottomless cups now, and shes quick about it to.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:18 AM   #12 (permalink)
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yup...that's right. lol knew that picture was for one of the many taken of you at your best 'rude' dog way. lol
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Old 05-01-2007, 01:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I see it as a move toward totalitarian fascism. I'm not in favor of that, and I smoke at my God given will.
Even monkeys smoke.
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Old 05-03-2007, 05:41 AM   #14 (permalink)
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i think that first line of global warming being false is a load of crap....just in my short life i remember getting snowed in on halloween. i cant remember the last time i could make a snowman on christmas morning, last couple years we haven't had a good snow until late jan-feb. i think that is saying something....
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