Iraq Afganistan Middle East Woos

[AJE]

W OW ........ is this laying it on the line or what?

The lady who wrote this letter is Pam Foster of Pamela Foster and Associates in Atlanta . She's been in business since 1980 doing interior design and home planning. She recently wrote a letter to a family member serving in Iraq ....... Read it!

:arrow: "Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 ?
:arrow: Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?
:arrow: Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?
:arrow: And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?

Well, I don't. I don't care at all.
:arrow: I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.
:arrow: I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia .
:arrow: I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.
:arrow: I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.
:arrow: I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.
:arrow: I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.
In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.
:arrow: When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.
:arrow: When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.
:arrow: When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.
:arrow: And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ---- you guessed it - - I don't care ! ! ! ! !
If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means ignore.
:arrow: Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great country.
I am not ignoring this, I am merely passing it on, but only after
I add: :idea:

:arrow: --"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem."
-- Ronald Reagan
:arrow: "If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God,
then we will be a nation gone under."
also by... Ronald Reagan

[talleyJudy]

I certainly agree with her sentiments 100%.

What personally irks me most is our oh so foolish "rules of engagement".

Somehow we human rights fanatics have forgotten that wars are fought to WIN - not make nice so 'they' will like us. Peace is achieved only through OVERWHELMING VICTORY. And overwhelming victory only happens when there is not enough left of the enemy and it's support system to fight and/or their desire to fight is completely squashed.

So the argument goes that "then we would be no better than they are."
That's right, we have to and should sink to their level to beat them. I would much rather have our country alive and safe and feared and respected than it be dead so that the rest of the world could 'speak well' of us. Why we do not use our superior fighting ability/technology to win this conflict/war against Islamic terrorism quickly and efficiently is sheer folly.
Islam is now engaged in a World War - what don't we understand about that? We give the idea lip service, but are not allowed to use the teeth behind the lips.

Our Dept. of State has and will accomplish absolutely nothing by trying to promote "democracy" in Islamic areas/countries because the ideas/philosophies of democracy the basics/tenants/'philosophy' of Islam are completely mutually exclusive and diametrically opposed ..... period ....that's a FACT.

Judy

[Crys]

This is mindless twaddle.

Some of the people in gitmo might be terrorists. Maybe. Since they're being refused fair trials all we really know about them is that they're people who are being tortured for having the "wrong" skin color and/or religion.

The fact that they're being refused fair trials and access to lawyers just tells me that most of them really are innocent and more than that, that the govt. knows that and doesn't care because people who can't be bothered to think for themselves don't care so long as they can have someone to hate.

[j10asen]

Originally Posted by Crys

This is mindless twaddle.

Some of the people in gitmo might be terrorists. Maybe. Since they're being refused fair trials all we really know about them is that they're people who are being tortured for having the "wrong" skin color and/or religion.

The fact that they're being refused fair trials and access to lawyers just tells me that most of them really are innocent and more than that, that the govt. knows that and doesn't care because people who can't be bothered to think for themselves don't care so long as they can have someone to hate.

Don't you just hate fighting about war?
I sure do.

I am soooooooooooooo mixed, I still can't but wonder how fair it was for all those people in the twin towers and their friends and families. Did they get a fair trial before attack? Should they even be placed on trial to begin with?
Yet I for the life of me do not understand what Iraq had to do with 911?
and if they had any responsibility why do we feel that we are responsible for stablizing and rebuilding Iraq?

I hate the "I told you so" statement but the day of our invasion into Iraq I told my wife.
"I think this is the republican's version of Viet Nam, and they will regret it"
But like always who really suffers?

[keith]

Originally Posted by Crys

This is mindless twaddle.

No, it isn't mindless twaddle.

Agree or disagree as you like, Crys, but please do not dismiss the sentiments and convictions of another as mindless twaddle.

Regards,
Keith

[keith]

Originally Posted by talleyJudy

I certainly agree with her sentiments 100%.

What personally irks me most is our oh so foolish "rules of engagement".

Somehow we human rights fanatics have forgotten that wars are fought to WIN - not make nice so 'they' will like us. Peace is achieved only through OVERWHELMING VICTORY. And overwhelming victory only happens when there is not enough left of the enemy and it's support system to fight and/or their desire to fight is completely squashed.

One of the most vocal generals in US history, unquestionably dedicated to victory, George S. Patton, said this: Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of the men who follow and of the man who leads that gains that victory.

I do not believe that the spirits of American fighting men and women, leaders or followers, will be enhanced by abandoning rules of engagement.

So the argument goes that "then we would be no better than they are."
That's right, we have to and should sink to their level to beat them. I would much rather have our country alive and safe and feared and respected than it be dead so that the rest of the world could 'speak well' of us.

I agree with Ben Franklin who said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I simply disagree that we have to sink to their level to beat them. That would be tantamount to suggesting that we send missiles into office buildings on the scale of the World Trade Center. That is not what we're about.

Why we do not use our superior fighting ability/technology to win this conflict/war against Islamic terrorism quickly and efficiently is sheer folly. Islam is now engaged in a World War - what don't we understand about that? We give the idea lip service, but are not allowed to use the teeth behind the lips.

That Islam is engaged in a World War is a dangerous and dramatic overstatement. A favorite line from a favorite dramatic series:

Muslim extremist is to Islam what the Klu Klux Klan is to Christianity.

Our Dept. of State has and will accomplish absolutely nothing by trying to promote "democracy" in Islamic areas/countries because the ideas/philosophies of democracy the basics/tenants/'philosophy' of Islam are completely mutually exclusive and diametrically opposed ..... period ....that's a FACT.

Judy

With all due respect, Judy, if we had taken the same attitude after WWII instead of the Marshall plan, the Germans, Italians and Japanese would likely still be our enemies. We were right to promote democracy then and we are now.

There are major cultural hurdles. The single biggest: fully half of the population of Islamic nations is essentially barred from participating in shaping those cultures - the women. Our very presence in the Middle East, with women soldiers in positions of responsibility and leadership, might be a beginning to promoting a huge cultural change.

If women in Islamic societies get a taste of freedom, even the idea that they may be entitled to rights, that could lend itself to a major shift, indeed, an advancement of civilization in the widest of western terms. Is it our place to instigate or promote such a change? I believe that promoting the democratic belief that all men - and women - are created equally is an ideal that transcends democratic belief. It is a human belief.

There is a lot of anger post 9/11. We must do our best to control that anger to do influence positive outcomes in our world. It matters little where we came from compared to where we're going.

Regards,
Keith

[Kris10]

I think the sentiments of the first post would be different if a Christian prisoner were being denied a bible. Both Muslims and Christian extremists are plenty guilty killing innocent people these days.

[j10asen]

Originally Posted by Kris10

I think the sentiments of the first post would be different if a Christian prisoner were being denied a bible. Both Muslims and Christian extremists are plenty guilty killing innocent people these days.

Kris10
Can you actually find a war any time in history where more guilty people died than innocent people?

It has always been the poor working stiff that pays for it in everyway!!!

"War.... What is it good for?... absolutley nothing"....

by Eric Burden-I think

[kmfarm]

Crys wrote:
This is mindless twaddle.

With comments like this from a site admin, it's no wonder alot of people avoid posting in the forums.

Mark

[talleyJudy]

With all due respect, Judy, if we had taken the same attitude after WWII instead of the Marshall plan, the Germans, Italians and Japanese would likely still be our enemies. We were right to promote democracy then and we are now.

I agree with that point, the operative word being 'after'. In the present situation we are attempting to do the Marchall plan type rebuilding and promoting democracy before winning this conflict/war in the countries of Iraq and Afghanistan.



Oh well, we once had a general too who wanted to win the "Korean War" and he was 'dismissed' as being out of line.

I can't remember if it is Denmark or The Netherlands, but one of those two countries will attain a Muslim voting majority in about 35 years. For the younger ones here it should be quite interesting observing that new Islamic democracy.

Judy

[keith]

Originally Posted by talleyJudy

I agree with that point, the operative word being 'after'. In the present situation we are attempting to do the Marchall plan type rebuilding and promoting democracy before winning this conflict/war in the countries of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Good point, Judy.

I wrote that reply while thinking about the speech of a gentleman last Veterans Day at my daughter's school. The speaker was the Captain of a reserve unit from northern Wisconsin that had just returned from Iraq. These people were everyday people mostly from the same area in Wisconsin. As I recall they included a dentist, a couple of mechanics, a salesman or two, maybe a butcher, some people into farming, etc.

The Captain spoke with great pride of the one thousand missions his company, part of an engineer battalion as I recall, performed in their 12 or 16 months in Iraq. Missions that ranged from building schools to re-establishing drinking wells.

I was struck by how ordinary these people were - the same people you might come across in any town in Wisconsin - and how prideful and indeed heroic their everyday actions in accomplishing their missions, virtually all of which were humanitarian.

I believe those are the acts that will win the hearts and minds of people.

It isn't that we shouldn't win the war. The Iraqi Army was defeated. The guerrilla war is another story, and a much more difficult one. They don't 'fight fair'. We are fighting terrorists, in essence.

A friend of mine just retired from 33 years in the service. He was in the first Gulf war. His son was in the current Gulf war. His philosophy on the subject of the war is that if we weren't taking the war to the home of the terrorists, we'd be fighting it here.

I'd like to think my own opinions are more informed and formed by my encounters with the gentlemen mentioned above. Ordinary people who were there. An associate of mine has a good friend who just returned and who agrees that we must complete our overall mission - to defeat the terrorists - as well as the thousands of humanitarian missions we're engaged in. When you have people who are there or were there, especially reservists who've been torn away from their families and careers, that tell the story that we need to finish the job in this manner, well, that's the biggest influence on my thinking.

Oh well, we once had a general too who wanted to win the "Korean War" and he was 'dismissed' as being out of line.

I can't remember if it is Denmark or The Netherlands, but one of those two countries will attain a Muslim voting majority in about 35 years. For the younger ones here it should be quite interesting observing that new Islamic democracy.

Judy

Thanks for a good dialog, Judy. I am proud to live in a place where you and I can discuss such things. And I'm proud to speak in a forum in which we can have a civil dialog about it.

Whatever we believe, I think it is important to support our warriors - even if not the war. Something that strikes me is how absent the war can be from the thoughts of many - and sometimes I think most of us - on a daily basis. It is all too easy to go about our daily lives without giving thought to what is happening. I've personally taken some small steps to remind myself that the war, and the support of our troops, is important.

I often hesitate to post about a topic like this because I simply tend to avoid conflict. I believe, however, that whatever our thoughts on the war it is important for us to remember that our brothers and sisters are sacrificing a lot, and sometimes their all. The least we can do is keep them forefront in our thoughts...and for those of us who are so inclined, our prayers.

Regards,
Keith

[j10asen]

I just saw him yesterday
he was just a child at play
shooting buckets by the school
playing horse, the court was his rule
every now and then he'd pass me by on his bike
he'd wave,i'd smile, he was the young boy, all did like
as he grew strong and tall
the town's folk, he knew them all
he was known on the field of play
winning the game but sharing the day
his wins ,his success,his day in the sun
he shared all, with everyone
he voluntered because his uncle called
his service, they needed it all
just as he play his games
he died in the war with no one to blame
I just turned around and he was there
trapped in a casket, we all said a prayer

war is not for those who are rich
it's for peasants who dig the ditch
it's for those have dirt under their nails
not for those in white ties and tails
war is for the young and brave
to protect the homeland,our lifestyle they save
stop and do not turn away
protect those now who run and play

stoney rohde