-Update- About A Possible Cult In Baraboo

[roger_mary]

I found out more about it.
They claim its not a cult, but I still wouldn't want my children to hang out there.
They gather to play dungeons and dragons, vampires, magic card games.
They dress up in black make-up, trench coats to play the character and also sell these card games.. .. My mom has seen several different times in newspapers of kids either killing themselves or others and the paper says they got their ideas from dungeons and dragons, so call it what you want, but its still not something in which kids nor adults should be involved in.
Please don't think I am judging either, I am no better then them, I'm not even against weaing black or even black make-up if thats just your style, but what I am against is the -reason- these people do it.

The building is located on the south side of town at the culligan building, they own the part that used to be owned by a baptist church of all things.. plus its real close to the park and where teens go to skate...and whats also disturbing is Seeing little kids riding their bikes close by at around 8:30 at night.
So just a warning to be careful about where your teens go to hang out.
I think its called the "hobby" shop with a black demon looking creature painted on the door.

[MrKhay]

thanks for the "HEADS UP" on this matter.
Remember, creeps gotta have somewhere to hang out, too....or they'll start hanging around where you are.
PEACE

[Kris10]

Originally Posted by roger_mary

...and whats also disturbing is Seeing little kids riding their bikes close by at around 8:30 at night.

You're right, this is disturbing and has nothing to do with a supposed cult. Where are the parents of these kids, letting them ride around at night by themselves?

I can't even begin to address the issue of computer games and trench coats being supposed cult behavior. I can't see the screen from my eyes being rolled so far back into my head.

[andy]

Originally Posted by roger_mary

if it is just selling games, then I don't see why so many people are in a circle with trench coats on so just check it out for your self ..and this is just a warning for the parents to keep a closer eye on your kids now just in case it is serious.

Some people just like to dress up and have fun I guess.

They're probably more scared of you than you are of them.

[xswinnyx]

...And then parents say "How could this happen to my kids?" Not noticing warning signs, is how our society got the way it is today. Someone said "Where are these kids parents?" They are on The Bubbler rolling there eyes at the possibility of a cult. Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing good ever comes out of groups like this and I think it should be taken more seriously.

[Kris10]

I roll my eyes because this seems to be hysteria and speculation versus documented illegal activity. It would be one thing if the police had found legitimate illegal activities going on at this place. A bunch of kids wearing black and playing RPGs is rather tame... unless, of course, the kids are operating a meth lab in the back.

I speak as one who wore trench coats, black clothes and odd makeup (and still do), played RPGs, shunned society and grew up to be a boring, straight-laced, upstanding young professional. The kids who aren't playing sports need a place, too. They need a safe place to share their hobbies with others after a day of getting berated at school because they are different.

Every parent has a right to shelter his or her child from what he or she deems as inappropriate, but my concern is that fear and ignorance towards alternative cultures is being preached over understanding and First Amendment rights. My purpose here is not to chastise opposing beliefs on this subject, but rather to open dialog as to why this RPG store is perceived as a threat to today's youth.

Free the West Memphis Three

[Crys]

I play RPGs. Heck, I am involved with WRITING a live-action rpg, and I have been running Live-Action Role Playing Games for over a decade. I even play the dreaded Dungeons & Dragons. And when I go out clubbing on the weekends, I even wear *GASP* blue lipstick and black clothing.

I don't even know where to even start to answer this. A group of people getting together to tell cooperative stories or play cards is a VERY far cry from a CULT. In fact, rpgs promote a sense of teamwork and hone the player's problem solving skills and creativity. Gaming helps keep kids drug-free and off the street. Frankly, watching gory war movies is a heck of a lot more of a problem than "how does your character get past this obstacle?", but because the people in the war movies don't look different, they must be ok, right?

Here is an excerpt from a well-written FAQ about gaming at http://www.theescapist.com/basic_gaming_faq.htm:

Why do rpgs have a bad reputation?

It stems mainly from a pair of isolated incidents, one of which occurred in 1979, and the other of which happened in the early 1980s.

The first incident involved a young man named James Dallas Egbert, a 16-year-old boy who was bright enough to be attending college at such a young age. Egbert had much more than his fair share of problems; he was under constant pressure from his parents to exceed, and was hiding his drug addictions and homosexuality from them.

Egbert went into hiding for nearly a year, and was pursued by William Dear, a private investigator hired by his uncle to find him. Dear discovered that the boy occasionally played Dungeons & Dragons, and began searching for him based on the hunch that Egbert was playing the game in the steam tunnels beneath the dormitories. This sparked media stories associating the game with Egbert's dissappearance; stories that were never retracted when the truth came out. When Egbert took his own life a year after being found, Dear let the story stand as it was, untrue and misleading, to "protect" the Egbert family from the truth about James' secret life.

This event not only began the myth that role-playing can inspire suicide, but it also started the urban legend that gamers like to play in places such as steam or sewage tunnels.

The second incident involved a young man named Irving "Bink" Pulling, who killed himself in 1982 with his mother's handgun. His mother Patricia claimed that his suicide was due to a curse that had been placed on his character in a D&D game he played at his school. Irving's story, however, showed a collection of deeper problems: he idolized Adolf Hitler, had trouble fitting in with his schoolmates, and was often seen running through his backyard while howling at the moon. In addition, when asked about the events of the game, none of his fellow players remember any such curse happening to Irving's character.

Pulling went on to form Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons (B.A.D.D.), a group that sought to ban D&D from schools and have a label placed on the covers of game books warning that the contents could cause suicide. She and her group were moderately successful in the former, but failed at the latter. During her involvement with B.A.D.D., Pulling would often distribute newspaper articles that had been edited to help prove her point - she would change the order of paragraphs to put an anti-game slant on the story, and remove anything that did not support her beliefs. This is not only dishonest and misleading, it is illegal.

Ever since these two events occurred, many have associated gaming as a possible cause in any crime committed by, or even against, a gamer, or someone who is assumed to be a gamer. In this manner, gaming has been associated with every crime imaginable, from robbery, burglary, and drug abuse to rape, suicide, and murder. This certainly has been assisted by people such as Mrs. Pulling who have done all that they can to propagate such untruths.

Yet in every case, a saner, more realistic, and more probable cause can easily be found. That is, when games are even involved at all; 20% of all "game related" cases do not involve any form of game, but are assumed to by investigators and reporters. The Columbine massacre is possibly the most famous example of this.

Since CCGs began their existence with Magic: The Gathering (which is based on a fantasy spell-casting environment) and were born out of the popularity of RPGs, they have received a "guilt by association" charge by many of the anti-gamers.

The truth is, as proven by Albert Einstien University and the Department of Suicidology, is that role-playing games do not cause their players to kill themselves. With this knowledge in hand, all of the remaining accusations against games and gamers become dubious.

In fact, when one compares the 80-plus cases of crimes where gamers were involved versus the millions of people who enjoy games on a regular basis, an abysmally small percentage, way below the norm for people of any specialty group, is the result. Could it be that playing D&D or Magic actually prevents crime?

If you want the truth and not just close-minded unthinking bigotry, you may also be interested in this forum thread at flamesrising.com, a local gaming site that I'm involved with (but which I must point out is _completely_ unaffiliated with theBubbler): http://flamesrising.com/index.php?na...iewtopic&t=227
But if you're not interested in learning and would rather condemn something just because you think it's different, please do not post there and make trouble. The site is moderated.

[andy]

Originally Posted by roger_mary

I found out more about it.
They gather to play dungeons and dragons, vampires, magic card games.
They dress up in black make-up, trench coats to play the character and also sell these card games.. .. My mom has seen several different times in newspapers of kids either killing themselves or others and the paper says they got their ideas from dungeons and dragons, so call it what you want, but its still not something in which kids nor adults should be involved in.
Please don't think I am judging either, I am no better then them, I'm not even against weaing black or even black make-up if thats just your style, but what I am against is the -reason- these people do it.

Those games really have gotten a bad reputation, but they're mostly harmless. There are people with a hard time dealing with reality that are attracted to them, but I wouldn't blame the game for their issues. Although, if you're the type to blame "The Catcher in the Rye" for Mark David Chapman, then I guess that there really isn't anything I can say to change your mind.

I don't play those RPG games, but I have known a few people that have and from what I can tell, there isn't anything involved that wasn't in the Lord of the Rings books / movies.

Originally Posted by xswinnyx

...And then parents say "How could this happen to my kids?" Not noticing warning signs, is how our society got the way it is today. Someone said "Where are these kids parents?" They are on The Bubbler rolling there eyes at the possibility of a cult. Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing good ever comes out of groups like this and I think it should be taken more seriously.

Well, I think the issue is mainly an attitude of disinterest by "the parents." If you're that concerned about your kids, just make sure they know that it's "make believe."

[AlumniClub]

What is Dungeons & Dragons?
"Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) is a role-playing game: players choose on of their number to be the Dungeon Master or D.M., a sort of referee, and the rest each create a character, an imaginary person or creature, defined in terms of randomly generated physical and mental attributes (such as Strength, Intelligence and Charisma). The player also fills in such details as the name, sex, age, height and weight. When this is done the player will have a fairly complete description of his character, yet it is still lifeless. This is where the role-playing begins: he 'assumes' the personality of the character and directs its actions. A character, on its own, can do nothing, but with a player the character can live and adventure in a world which the D.M. has created and populated with fabulous and mythical creatures.

The game can be regarded as a conversation between the D.M. and the players, the former describing what is happening to the characters ('You are standing in a ten-foot-wide passageway; ahead is a solid oaken door with intricate stone carvings round the frame . . .'), the latter describing their actions ('All right I'll kick the door down'). The D.M. needs to have a good imagination, the ability to think fast (it seems you can get away with anything as long as you can justify it) and to sound plausible. The players, to quote the inventor, Gary Gygax, need imaginative, retentive memories, [to be] competitive, co-operative, thorough, bold, but not rash, and quick thinking (my emphasis). It is important to realise that there is no winning or losing in D&D and other role-playing games.

:arrow: Taken from What is Dungeons & Dragons by John Butterfield, David Honigmann, and Philip Barker, published by Penguin Books Ltd, Middlesex, England, 1982.

[roger_mary]

[quote="Crys"] And when I go out clubbing on the weekends, I even wear *GASP* blue lipstick and black clothing.-------------

I Don't Know why your gasping since I already Said I am -not- against wearing black clothes and make-up.


[quote="Crys"] Since CCGs began their existence with Magic: The Gathering (which is based on a fantasy spell-casting environment) and were born out of the popularity of RPGs, they have received a "guilt by association" charge by many of the anti-gamers.-------------------

See That Right There is what I don't Like, The Spell Witch Craft Scene.
Too many Teens Turn To WitchCraft These Days and I just wonder what May have sparked their interest, but perhaps cards like those.

[Crys]

roger_mary: I Don't Know why your gasping since I already Said I am -not- against wearing black clothes and make-up.

You did. But your fear seems to stem mostly from the fact that they look different from you and therefore must be evil incarnate and out to hurt the neighborhood kids.

I applaud you, though, for being willing to go find out more information about them.

roger_mary: See That Right There is what I don't Like, The Spell Witch Craft Scene. Too many Teens Turn To WitchCraft These Days and I just wonder what May have sparked their interest, but perhaps cards like those.

If you are referring to Wicca, well, that's just another created religion like Christianity or Buddhism, but peaceful and more about saving the environment and finding inner peace than anything else; even though people call it "witch-craft" it has about NOTHING in common with the stereotypical fear-mongering idea that got people burned at the stake for centuries and has a lot of ideals in common with the early gnostic Christianity; they just think their God takes on multiple forms (some Wiccans believe there are two primary gods, a male power and a female, but most think the male and female are just different manifestations of the same power). It's just younger, a couple centuries instead of a couple millenia.

If you're referring to some mythical "The Craft"-like thing where kids think they can break glass with their mind and curse people by calling on demons, well, that's pretty far fetched. I'm sure there are people like that out there somewhere who are disturbed but they're related to people who play the card game Magic about the same way that David Korresh was related to Christianity -- they use a word that's the same but means something entirely different to each group ("magic" in the first case, "christianity" in the second).

I would be MUCH more concerned if my kids were playing poker or blackjack than Magic. Magic is much more like hearts, where you're looking for specific combinations of cards to win the game, or rummy where you're trying to put more of the right cards on the table than your opponent, and it doesn't involve betting money like "regular" card games. It's a little more involved than that, but that's probably the simplest explanation of the game. And Magic has some very cool art, too (not all of it is good art, but what is good, is VERY good). I've got a few cards that I picked up (even though I prefer the card game NetRunner to Magic) just because I liked the art.

Playing Magic is about as dangerous as watching "Legend", and it's FAR more social. The primary reason I game and play collectible card games is because it's a particularly good way to meet really cool people and make life-long friendships. I even met my absolutely wonderful husband (a physicist and the sweetest man you'll ever meet) that way. We were in a game together and started hanging out other than at game time, got to be friends, and we just passed the ten year anniversary of our first date a couple months ago. If the guy running that game hadn't asked both of us to join his group, we might never have gotten to know each other.

[roger_mary]

[quote="Crys"]

roger_mary: I Don't Know why your gasping since I already Said I am -not- against wearing black clothes and make-up.

[quote="Crys"][
You did. But your fear seems to stem mostly from the fact that they look different from you and therefore must be evil incarnate and out to hurt the neighborhood kids.


No, It wasn't just wearing black trench coats it was the ugly creature on the door and the weird cards..but I would rather them play poker and just loose money, then them get interested in a witchcraft scene.
Also I have talked to wiccans that believe there is "good" magic which is simply not true, all witchcraft is evil, so no I wouldn't want my kids to gather every week to play a spell card game that could spark their interest of thinking maybe there is "white" magic.
Lots of teens are into witchcraft these days.
And I'm not saying everyone who plays the cards would turn to witchcraft, but you just don't know.
And one thing I don't get is why is everything so gory with the cards and the ugly thing on the door?
Don't you have any role playing card games that are actually good reality of what to do in a dangerious situation and so on, why all the gore?
Thanks for taking the time too.

[Crys]

These are some multi-pronged questions. Let me try to approach them in as orderly a fashion as I can...

I got the impression from your original post that it was the black makeup and the trench coats that made you think they were into "witchcraft" and from my side of usual divide, that sounds like more of the same "they're different so they must be evil" that has plagued humanity since we first learned to walk upright. If that's not the case with you, I'm sorry of accusing you of it. It's just how it sounds to me.

First off, the idea of witchcraft is a myth created to control people through fear and the creation of an arbitrary Us vs Them. The modern idea of demonic witchcraft was created by the Catholic Church, but the idea is far far older than Christianity or even, I suspect, Judaism in general. The specifics have changed to fit the times and the political aims, but the core idea is the same: "they can do something you can't do, they're out to get you, and you need to fear them. Let me tell you how to feel safe. And we have to get them before they get us." The two biggest examples I can think of are the witch burnings across Europe for several centuries and the early persecution of Christians by the Roman emporers for their refusal to worship the emporers as gods (the propaganda? almost identical in both cases). Both served the purpose of creating fear (because anyone could be blamed and there was pretty much no hope of being found innocent) and giving a small number of people a great deal of control.

I know there are a very very small number people who think they can do "magic" like you're talking about. Those people are disturbed. If it was real, they'd all have won the lotto six times over and be married to supermodels.

The way _most_ Wiccans and some other Neo-Pagans use the word "magic" sounds alot the same, but it isn't. It's a way to describe inner changes and a connection to the rest of the world and a way to focus yourself on achieving what you want, much the same as monotheists pray or Buddhists meditate. And most Wiccans would be shocked to discover how much of their ritual and focus was originally Christian. Gardner created a religion by pulling elements from several disparate cultures, and Gnosticism (which is an early sect of Christianity) was a primary source. To alot of people saying "I do magic" makes them feel special in a way that "I pray alot" just doesn't. I considered myself Wiccan for awhile, when I was first entering religion after a life of practical nihilism. Trust me, there's no such thing as "magic" like you're describing and if there is, you won't find it with the neopagans, most of whom don't even believe in your God and Satan. My experience also showed me that there's a substantial number of people (just in my experience) who end up Wiccan beca