This was the first conversation I caught this morning between four folks at a Circle K (gas station), for the reason he doesn't, and suggested others shouldn't, attend church.
Does it make sense or is it a worthly excuse not to seek God amoungst other believers?
I know this is a touchy subject for some, and the ones it's not, it needs to be. Cause either we are encouraging people to become apart of the Body of Christ or you aren't your self and you really need to look at your retirement plan for eternity before it happens before you are ready.
I would like to share what God gave to me on this issue but first I would like to hear your thoughts on this (for church or against it). Or if there are other reasons why you don't attend the gathering of Gods people. I'm not here to bash your feelings, but to give My God's perspective on the issue.
If you get offended or get angry quickly I suggest taking ten deep breathes now and chill so that you with ears can hear and you with eye's may be able to see. I Don't say this to warn you (cause I don't care what you think) but so that you'll feel free to express your thoughts on this subject or any subject dealing with Christian faith and God.
I don't know that there are more devils in than out. There are plenty of hypocrites, but I don't really think Devils is good word to use. Church is not for the saved, it's for people that are not saved. Just like AA isn't for people that never had a drinking problem. People that have "issues" Spiritually or otherwise, should be found in the church. It is really the only place to get the help, or fill the void that they are seeking to get filled.
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XSWINNYX
If you find that you have lost your marbles, Chances are, I have them in my pocket.
Finders, Keepers!
So are you saying that after you get saved then church is not a requirement?
If so I don't see where the bible supports that at all. You can read the book of acts and see the complete opposite of that. Even in Hebrews 10 it states do not to forsake the gathering of your brethren even more so as the last days are approaching.
In the New Testament and old the church has always been a place of edifying one another; whether new convert, unsaved seeking salvation, or old saint. In fact a lot of the letters written start with the greetings or end in greeting "to the Saints in"...so an so church or city. I see it as a place for all, who are apart or want to be apart of the body of Christ (which is what the book of Corinthian's and Ephesians tells us) to fellowship and yes get deliverance and breakthru in thier lives.
No Sir,
That's not what I'm saying. Even after your saved, you still need to be fed and lead, etc. What I'm saying is, the people in the church should not be expected to be perfect. They are all at differant levels. There will be problems, in every church. And of course the devil is in the church, he already has the world.
__________________
XSWINNYX
If you find that you have lost your marbles, Chances are, I have them in my pocket.
Finders, Keepers!
No Sir,
That's not what I'm saying. Even after your saved, you still need to be fed and lead, etc. What I'm saying is, the people in the church should not be expected to be perfect. They are all at differant levels. There will be problems, in every church. And of course the devil is in the church, he already has the world.
Amen...anyone else feel different or agree...DON'T GET SCARED NOW.
Does it make sense to cut your self out of church because there are hypocrites in church or "devils"? Let’s look at this logic:
-people abuse over the counter medicine, yet people don't cut that out of their lives because others abuse it.
-what about going to work, there are a lot of lies, cussing, perverse conversation and back biting that goes on there but we don't quit work.
-what about our tongues? With all the filthiness that comes out of the majority of people but you don't see people cutting off their tongues.
-how about other parts of our anatomy? People fornicate and commit adultery and all kinds of sexual immorality yet no one is cut that out of their lives or off their bodies.
So why is it when things happen at church that people are so quick to cut church out their lives? As Chad had stated earlier that the church is there for people to get right and to let God change them and shape them into the image of Christ. That means that these are not perfect people, they are human beings that seek to change (at least that's what is suppose to happen). But because of the lack to confront sin, the church has lost the effectiveness that it used to have because the leaders are allowing sin to continue in the church instead of dealing with the issues at hand. If all we are looking for is a large comfortable church that teaches good moral lessons. Then we'll miss out on what God really wants to do in His people...more personally YOU.
Don't let other people's actions dictate your decision to live for God. You need to find a church that will deal with sin and lead people to make a sound decision to pursue after God and His standards
Hmm, Why are we alone here?
:idea: I hope I don't have to ask that after I die :!:
Dang...I hope your right...All I'm going to say is you better be 100% sure that what you believe in lines up with what God said is acceptable. One preacher said this; that 95% of obedience is still disobedience. Just cause you stop doing a lot of what you use to do, doesn't mean that God has your heart. He (God) tells us that if we love Him we will obey His commandments. Are you obeying or being hard headed?
I cannot say I don't mess up. But I do my best, and try all that much harder when I catch myself messing up. Just make sure you follow what God says (what's in the Bible), and not what a church says. They are not always the same.
__________________
XSWINNYX
If you find that you have lost your marbles, Chances are, I have them in my pocket.
Finders, Keepers!
I've seen, even in the scriptures, that God is not looking for perfect individuals on the outside, in actions and works. God knows and so do we that He won't find it. But God states even in 1 Sam. that He (God) doesn't look at the outward appearances but the heart of the person.
He knows that all have fallin short of the glory and none are righteous, but he stills desires to have fellowship with us to help us become as He is. That's comforting to know that God wants to help us to change and not just throw a book at us, saying "here's the instruction...do it". He says here I am, come to me you that know that you can't do it by your selves and I'll help. Like a child unto a parent, which is why Jesus said "unless you come to me like a child, you will by no means enter in..."
Religion is man trying to reach God...this doesn't work...many are trying and failing, then they get discouraged and stop trying all together.
Relationship is God reaching to man...this is what he did at the cross and wants to do in our lives today.
Well Joshua, I'm pushing 64 years old and have journeyed from being born Lutheran, parochial school, to becoming a Jehovah's Witness around '66 and then JW 'inactive' in '89. After '9/11' I spent many, many hours studying and learning about Islam. It was after reading the Koran for the 3rd time that I sat back and looked at the 'big picture', did a lot of research on secular 'world history', took stock of my own life's experiences/observations and came to the conclusion that (I don't have the energy/time/inclination to 'study' far eastern religions): it seems all religion is man-made. For a short while I was atheistic, but then realized that atheism is also a 'faith'; as there is really no tangible proof either way. So now I find myself an Apethetic Agnostic.
I can't prove anything and I don't know. And what I believe or don't believe does not in any way effect the way this world works or it's destiny or, from observation, even my destiny.
Solomon's observations in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are fastinating when read with an 'open mind', and I find most of them to be true to my life's experiences.
Eccl.3:19-22 "Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath
(Heb.neph'esh); man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows (Solomon did not know) if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?
So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?"
Eccl.9:11 "I have seen something else under the sun: .......but time and chance happen to them all".
Another translation paraphrases Eccl.2:11 "everything is vanity and a striving after wind."
I must admit that I do miss the practice of prayer even though the conversation was always one way.
Just lately I heard somone say that if one really thinks about it, all the good done in this world is done by mankind (yes much of the evil too, but all of the good).
Thank you, Joshua, for the invitation to express myself on this matter.
talleyJudy
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"Saving one dog will not change the world. But, surely, for that one dog the world will change forever."
I liked the way that Solomon summed it up
Ecc 12:13-14 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Solomon did show how our attempts in life matter little as far as us controlling how things go. It states in James 4: that our life is but a vapor; it is shown in Matthew and Proverbs and Ecc. (Not to mentions our own experiences them selves) that worrying about life’s situations matter very little, cause we have no control over things that are not in our hands.
Romans 1:16-22 states it in this manner..."For I am not ashamed of the gospel salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " the just shall live by faith"
18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in the, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are with out excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22: Professing to be wise, they became fools...
I know this not because I was raised in church, because I wasn't, but because I saw the effects of God's transforming power with my own eyes and life, when I gave my self over to the teaching of God's word. Now you’re thinking that because I made some sound decisions and stuck to it, that I got what I went after. But that wasn't it, because you can't change what happens on the inside. You just can't start to Love something you've never seen or never experienced first hand. You can stop doing things and you can start doing things *that deal with the hands and actions*, but our emotions and character and demeanor is something completely different. It's who you are and that's what God touches and makes His home for those that have let Him have rein in their lives.
I'm sorry that you never got connected with God. I know that I don't always hear from God, nor do I always feel His presence in prayer. But I know that He hears me. But if I was looking for a sign or for God to have to prove His existence every time I got into prayer I wouldn't be living by faith, I would be living by sight. Jesus told Thomas "blessed are those who believe without seeing"...the Apostle Paul even said that it is impossible to please God without faith.
We live in a world that wants everything handed to them...I see that you took the time to at least seek and study to find an answer...I commend you, most "Christian's" don't go that far which is a shame. But why is it (and this I witness this first hand on a outreach) one young man raised in church and gave himself to church activities and stuff until 17 and then joined the Air force now confesses to be agnostic (sp?), and another young man living just one floor below him. Never raised in church, never subjected to Christian life, and lived a life as a thug in south central L.A. but knows that there is a God and has proof of what God did in his life just before joining the air force and during his life on the streets. He wasn't religious, as in fake (believe me I'm living in the south there is a difference between religion and relationship, I see it daily). I really feel that it deals with the condition of the heart and the motive of our heart, as to if God reveals Him self to us. Jesus said "many will seek but not to obtain" In Timothy Paul said "people will be ever learning and never able to come to the truth".
I don't know you from Adam but I would encourage you to seek diligently for the truth with a whole heart. Acknowledge you’re self as a sinner and pray that God would save you and make Himself real in your life. Then pray that God will show you a church to attend, not to join the heard of religious folks but to find some real born again Christian's and listen to there testimonies of the Living God. I promise, if you come before God in desperation you'll find Him. If you don't, you'll make the bed that you'll lie in.
I know that the scripture and its teaching seem almost too dry and narrow minded to be the actual Word of God. Maybe it shows it's self too strict and unobtainable for others. But it has always been straight and to the point. You also have to simplify your thoughts if you’re going to make it through the narrow gate.
In 2nd kings 5: (I believe I don't have my bible on me right now) but there was this general that had leprosy and the man of God told him to wash himself 7 times in the river Jordan, then he would be clean from the disease. The general was so stumped at the logic of it; he became very upset and started to leave. Then one of the general’s servants said "if he would have asked you to do something great, would you have not gone and done it?"
God knows that we are simple people that look at things that have great importance and figure that there's some type of trick to it, or theirs something you got to do... just to complicate it. Look at your job when you first started or school. Look at when we first start attending college classes or maybe some kind of technical training. When we first started it, we lack the understanding of how easy it really can be. Take for example; I did my own taxes on-line last year and was scared that I was going to do something wrong and I was going to get audited and have to pay some kind of fee or whatever. After I was done...it was like "wow...It wasn't that hard after all". So I did it again this year with confidence and no doubts. But when ever we first look at something new we'll say "Heck I don't understand it so it must be difficult"...but we do that, not God.
God had and has made it easy for us. Just step out on faith and he'll meet you.
look you shall find...ask and you shall receive...knock and the door will be opened.
Is there anyone else that would like to comment on their hang ups of church attendence or God altogether? Maybe something you don't understand or was just unsure about something and would like another opinion on it.
This forum is not to attack your beliefs but to bring understand of what the Bible teach's on certain issues (not that I'm a professor of theology heck I can't even spell it without check it out first). But I hope to answer questions that you may have, or break some myths that are out there. Maybe you had a bad experience and would like to know if that was suppose to go on in church or not.
If you want to debate...heck I'll do that to. But that is not my aim, and I'm sorry If I have come across that way to anyone that has been reading this. I will be straight forward and blunt with you and hope you'll be the same with me. It's the only way to bring out and answer to our questions.
And if I am wrong in quoting scripture or you would like to know where I come up with an answer. Please let me know or correct me...God forbid that I lead anyone wrong...really.
If this thread does become a debate I will move it to the Politics forum.
I just want to ask that you not proselytize. There are a fair number of people here who are atheists and a fair number (such as me) who are very devout but belong to an entirely different religion than any flavor of christianity. This is not an appropriate ground for attempts at conversion.
Discussion to help people understand the differences in different religions and that no one has a monopoly on "correct" faith, however, I'm all for that, provided assertions of "fact" are based on actual fact and not "I feel it should be so, so you should also believe it's a fact just because I say so".
I don't go to temple because we don't have one. So far as I know, I'm not sure there are even any others of my religion within 50 miles. If we did have one though, I think I might go for the community, but my religion emphasizes a personal relationship with our gods and goddesses and primarily with our ancestors, with rituals performed within the family unit and clan structure, not in a central temple.
I don't go to temple because we don't have one. So far as I know, I'm not sure there are even any others of my religion within 50 miles. If we did have one though, I think I might go for the community,
fair enough, I don't want to debate, I'll just bring facts about my faith (not based on my opinion) and discuss the reason people don't attend church.
What do you mean that you would go for the community?
The sense of community. The time to get together and meet like-minded people who may become lifelong friends. Some cities have larger groups and they get together for holidays or once a week when it's convenient for everyone or once a lunar month for the sake of doing so. It's not so hard to find people online, but there's so much discrimination against non-Christians that alot of us tend to keep to ourselves in our day to day life (I don't. I'm proud of who I am and I know I won't ever be a full first-class citizen in my own country unless we stop hiding who are and force the rest of society to give us a place at the table, but I understand the people who just want to live their lives without fighting for the right to live).
I like what you said earlier up about not throwing a book and saying "here's the instruction. do it.". I think that's the biggest complaint I've heard from my non-churchgoing Christian friends, that they felt that way when they were going to church or that there were people in the church hierarchy who were more interested in their own glory than their god's glory (though I think you'll find that in every religion that has ever existed). It seems to me, as an outsider, that one of the biggest problems with organized religions in general is that human nature takes over and some people try to use the organization for their own aggrandizement, which pretty much destroys its spiritual usefulness for the rest of the congregation. What do you do in your church to keep that from happening?
Good question...I'm going to speak for myself (I'm not the pastor but I play a role of a leader in the church), as to how I do it and been taught throught discipleship...I put it simple then break it down *understand who I am compared to God* *understand what happens if I should lead God's people astray* *the Fear of the Lord directs me* & *Me loving my God because He loved me first*
To make it simple: God has a plan for us and we can't do it without Him...so I teach to humble yourself before the living God and to learn how He would do things to accomplish the will of God for their life. If there is anything that takes presidence over personal relationship with Jesus Christ you have choicen who your God is then.
I first must realize who I am; a sinner fallin from grace and redemed by what Jesus did at the cross by the grace (love) of God. I must realize that I have not place myself here, I have not created anything by my own power, nor am I created greater than anyone else (whether bum or superstar, black or white, free or slave). I see the need for God in my life and know that I'm subject to fall to the temptations of the flesh if I live by them. I also understand not to fear that which can kill my body but fear that which can kill the body and place my soul away from the love and presence of God.
Secondly: I know that even though God doesn't need me, He wants me and desires to have a personal relationship with me. So God predestend to create me and give me purpuse, as He has all His creation. God doesn't create for geewizz, but for a purpose. Mainly, God wants to be with us forever but at this time in our life, we (Christians) are being shaped and molded into the image of the Son (Jesus...not that we all are going to be the same but with the heart of God) and we are to spread the gospel to gather as many as will believe on the name of God as possible. So to be a Christian and to be open to all other religions (as to say; that there is another way to make heaven your home outside of Christ...is compromise and false for us). So if I lead them my way or preach a gospel outside of Christ is to come against God Himself, and I become like the devil (which is the reason he got kicked out of heaven). We are suppose to depended on God call on Him as a child would call on his/her parent. But because the natural man is sinful, we tend to live by and die by it (survival at all cost is the human way) but Christ steps out to tell us to deny ourselves and the deeds of the flesh and be born again (spiritual birth...this is when God's spirit lives in us). God can't not live in us while we are in sin, which is the reason Christ had to die so that, the sinlessness of God could pay the price for our sins to draw us back into relationship. It was because of sin that we fell away from God so God brought us back by destroying what seperates us from God. We are to accept Jesus into our life as a payment for the sin that seperates us. If people learn to trust in God and humble themselves, they can't fail and won't let the affairs of this world get in their way from the love of Christ.
What do you do in your church to keep that from happening?
I hoped I answered your question.
if not: I point to Christ and the Cross. If we understand who we are and not trust in to our own understanding in a world we did not create, but instead humble ourselves and trust in God. He'll show us what needs to be done. So I encourage others to build a personal relationship with God as well.
If I get too high minded or lose focus it's because I'm not looking at God but at me.
I wasn't raised up spiritual but that doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. I didn't ask to come into this world (that didn't matter) but my parents feed me raised me and clothed me. I was glad to be alive.
I didn't ask for there to be something else outside of death (that doesn't matter either) but I became born again and my parent (Father) feeds me and is raising me up and has clothed me. I'm glad I'm not the same as I was and am excited to be alive forever more.
I have no problem stating what I feel on this site (Because I don't care what you think either. ) Church is there for those that need it. And for that I think it is great. But, after spending 30 years in a church and learning the hard way that you don't need it, I am happy to keep my spiritual life private and discuss it only with a few close chosen friends and anyone else that believes and wants to discuss something. But I know for a fact that it is not needed to make it into God's Kingdom. The deeper meaning of life is in how you ARE not how many church services you attend. It's your character that determines where you end up, not how many holy days you kept or how much you paid in tithes. You can attend church every Sabbath and still beat your wife and hate your neighbor. But you're in church so you're saved?????? Not according to Christ. The righteous Pharisees proved that. They were letter of the law keepers of the word and they killed Christ. So much for staunch church goers.
I think that you are on the right road. You love Jesus.
It is not in our power to judge anyone. I don't even know the bible or its qoutes. I do, however, love you for your love of Jesus. I think that in order to be saved as they say, God lives in us if we choose to allow that. So, you say that he has fed you and clothed you. Then your dutie to him is to feed and clothe the next guy. Love, trust and forgive. Get rid of hatred. Never compete with others about what ya believe in Jesus. Faith takes its stand there. Become God, by trusting and forgiving, and being good to those who may need some love and understanding. Don't believe that you are holier than thou by counting the times you been in church. It is how you live with the love for others that matters. That is God in your heart, and not just on Sunday in a temple.
I dont believe in the death penalty. I dont hate my ex. I dont go to church much. I love unconditionally. I do think however, that there is too much greed, judgements, and selfishness in this world. I think over half the population of the world has a great lack of true love. Sacrifice is what one does for another, and most of us would not have a clue on the importance of it. Sad............cause that is where the biggest return of love comes back at ya.
Love to you! Keep strong my friend, and believe as you are.
Add up all the laws that religion teaches people, and it boils down to: Treat people the way you would treat yourself. Honor and respect Mother earth, for she gives us life. As far as i can see, the government is the worst example of how to live religiously. AND...if you believe in the bible and god, how can you as a real estate agent, sell land that was put here for all: it dosent belong to anyone except all of us. Why should I have to pay for something that is already mine?
Yes, if this discussion was about ANY religion and some idjit started hounding people to convert to their religion, I would ban them (the thread was approaching that, and I'd had PMs asking me to delete the thread because of it). People trying to force conversion down other people's throats creates an oppressive, discriminatory, harassing, threatening atmosphere and I will not tolerate it.
If you want to talk to people AND THEY ASK about your religion, go ahead and tell them the good points, why you chose it over any other religion. IF THEY DECIDE to pursue further information, joining you, whatever, good for them. But that's THEIR decision, not yours to hound and harass until they do.
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) Church is there for those that need it. And for that I think it is great. But, after spending 30 years in a church and learning the hard way that you don't need it, I am happy to keep my spiritual life private and discuss it only with a few close chosen friends and anyone else that believes and wants to discuss something. But I know for a fact that it is not needed to make it into God's Kingdom. The deeper meaning of life is in how you ARE not how many church services you attend. It's your character that determines where you end up, not how many holy days you kept or how much you paid in tithes. You can attend church every Sabbath and still beat your wife and hate your neighbor. But you're in church so you're saved?????? Not according to Christ. The righteous Pharisees proved that. They were letter of the law keepers of the word and they killed Christ. So much for staunch church goers.
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