"More Devils In The Church Than Out"

Joshua · 03-02-2006, 08:11 AM

This was the first conversation I caught this morning between four folks at a Circle K (gas station), for the reason he doesn't, and suggested others shouldn't, attend church.

Does it make sense or is it a worthly excuse not to seek God amoungst other believers?

I know this is a touchy subject for some, and the ones it's not, it needs to be. Cause either we are encouraging people to become apart of the Body of Christ or you aren't your self and you really need to look at your retirement plan for eternity before it happens before you are ready.

I would like to share what God gave to me on this issue but first I would like to hear your thoughts on this (for church or against it). Or if there are other reasons why you don't attend the gathering of Gods people. I'm not here to bash your feelings, but to give My God's perspective on the issue.

If you get offended or get angry quickly I suggest taking ten deep breathes now and chill so that you with ears can hear and you with eye's may be able to see. I Don't say this to warn you (cause I don't care what you think) but so that you'll feel free to express your thoughts on this subject or any subject dealing with Christian faith and God.

Joshua

xswinnyx · 03-02-2006, 08:27 AM

I don't know that there are more devils in than out. There are plenty of hypocrites, but I don't really think Devils is good word to use. Church is not for the saved, it's for people that are not saved. Just like AA isn't for people that never had a drinking problem. People that have "issues" Spiritually or otherwise, should be found in the church. It is really the only place to get the help, or fill the void that they are seeking to get filled.

xswinnyx · 03-02-2006, 08:35 AM

"For All Have Sinned, And Fall Short of the Glory of God"
Romans 3:23

Joshua · 03-02-2006, 08:48 AM

So are you saying that after you get saved then church is not a requirement?

If so I don't see where the bible supports that at all. You can read the book of acts and see the complete opposite of that. Even in Hebrews 10 it states do not to forsake the gathering of your brethren even more so as the last days are approaching.

In the New Testament and old the church has always been a place of edifying one another; whether new convert, unsaved seeking salvation, or old saint. In fact a lot of the letters written start with the greetings or end in greeting "to the Saints in"...so an so church or city. I see it as a place for all, who are apart or want to be apart of the body of Christ (which is what the book of Corinthian's and Ephesians tells us) to fellowship and yes get deliverance and breakthru in thier lives.

xswinnyx · 03-02-2006, 09:27 AM

No Sir,
That's not what I'm saying. Even after your saved, you still need to be fed and lead, etc. What I'm saying is, the people in the church should not be expected to be perfect. They are all at differant levels. There will be problems, in every church. And of course the devil is in the church, he already has the world.

Joshua · 03-02-2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xswinnyx

No Sir,
That's not what I'm saying. Even after your saved, you still need to be fed and lead, etc. What I'm saying is, the people in the church should not be expected to be perfect. They are all at differant levels. There will be problems, in every church. And of course the devil is in the church, he already has the world.

Amen...anyone else feel different or agree...DON'T GET SCARED NOW.

Joshua · 03-06-2006, 10:55 AM

Does it make sense to cut your self out of church because there are hypocrites in church or "devils"? Let’s look at this logic:

-people abuse over the counter medicine, yet people don't cut that out of their lives because others abuse it.

-what about going to work, there are a lot of lies, cussing, perverse conversation and back biting that goes on there but we don't quit work.

-what about our tongues? With all the filthiness that comes out of the majority of people but you don't see people cutting off their tongues.

-how about other parts of our anatomy? People fornicate and commit adultery and all kinds of sexual immorality yet no one is cut that out of their lives or off their bodies.

So why is it when things happen at church that people are so quick to cut church out their lives? As Chad had stated earlier that the church is there for people to get right and to let God change them and shape them into the image of Christ. That means that these are not perfect people, they are human beings that seek to change (at least that's what is suppose to happen). But because of the lack to confront sin, the church has lost the effectiveness that it used to have because the leaders are allowing sin to continue in the church instead of dealing with the issues at hand. If all we are looking for is a large comfortable church that teaches good moral lessons. Then we'll miss out on what God really wants to do in His people...more personally YOU.

Don't let other people's actions dictate your decision to live for God. You need to find a church that will deal with sin and lead people to make a sound decision to pursue after God and His standards

Makes sense?

xswinnyx · 03-06-2006, 10:41 PM

Hmm, Why are we alone here?
:idea: I hope I don't have to ask that after I die :!:

Joshua · 03-07-2006, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xswinnyx

Hmm, Why are we alone here?
:idea: I hope I don't have to ask that after I die :!:

Dang...I hope your right...All I'm going to say is you better be 100% sure that what you believe in lines up with what God said is acceptable. One preacher said this; that 95% of obedience is still disobedience. Just cause you stop doing a lot of what you use to do, doesn't mean that God has your heart. He (God) tells us that if we love Him we will obey His commandments. Are you obeying or being hard headed?

xswinnyx · 03-07-2006, 10:44 AM

I cannot say I don't mess up. But I do my best, and try all that much harder when I catch myself messing up. Just make sure you follow what God says (what's in the Bible), and not what a church says. They are not always the same.

Joshua · 03-07-2006, 11:05 AM

I've seen, even in the scriptures, that God is not looking for perfect individuals on the outside, in actions and works. God knows and so do we that He won't find it. But God states even in 1 Sam. that He (God) doesn't look at the outward appearances but the heart of the person.

He knows that all have fallin short of the glory and none are righteous, but he stills desires to have fellowship with us to help us become as He is. That's comforting to know that God wants to help us to change and not just throw a book at us, saying "here's the instruction...do it". He says here I am, come to me you that know that you can't do it by your selves and I'll help. Like a child unto a parent, which is why Jesus said "unless you come to me like a child, you will by no means enter in..."

Religion is man trying to reach God...this doesn't work...many are trying and failing, then they get discouraged and stop trying all together.

Relationship is God reaching to man...this is what he did at the cross and wants to do in our lives today.

talleyJudy · 03-07-2006, 11:12 AM

Well Joshua, I'm pushing 64 years old and have journeyed from being born Lutheran, parochial school, to becoming a Jehovah's Witness around '66 and then JW 'inactive' in '89. After '9/11' I spent many, many hours studying and learning about Islam. It was after reading the Koran for the 3rd time that I sat back and looked at the 'big picture', did a lot of research on secular 'world history', took stock of my own life's experiences/observations and came to the conclusion that (I don't have the energy/time/inclination to 'study' far eastern religions): it seems all religion is man-made. For a short while I was atheistic, but then realized that atheism is also a 'faith'; as there is really no tangible proof either way. So now I find myself an Apethetic Agnostic.

I can't prove anything and I don't know. And what I believe or don't believe does not in any way effect the way this world works or it's destiny or, from observation, even my destiny.

Solomon's observations in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are fastinating when read with an 'open mind', and I find most of them to be true to my life's experiences.

Eccl.3:19-22 "Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath
(Heb.neph'esh); man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows (Solomon did not know) if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?
So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?"

Eccl.9:11 "I have seen something else under the sun: .......but time and chance happen to them all".

Another translation paraphrases Eccl.2:11 "everything is vanity and a striving after wind."

I must admit that I do miss the practice of prayer even though the conversation was always one way.

Just lately I heard somone say that if one really thinks about it, all the good done in this world is done by mankind (yes much of the evil too, but
all of the good).

Thank you, Joshua, for the invitation to express myself on this matter.

talleyJudy

Joshua · 03-07-2006, 05:16 PM

I liked the way that Solomon summed it up
Ecc 12:13-14 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Solomon did show how our attempts in life matter little as far as us controlling how things go. It states in James 4: that our life is but a vapor; it is shown in Matthew and Proverbs and Ecc. (Not to mentions our own experiences them selves) that worrying about life’s situations matter very little, cause we have no control over things that are not in our hands.

Romans 1:16-22 states it in this manner..."For I am not ashamed of the gospel salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " the just shall live by faith"
18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in the, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are with out excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22: Professing to be wise, they became fools...

I know this not because I was raised in church, because I wasn't, but because I saw the effects of God's transforming power with my own eyes and life, when I gave my self over to the teaching of God's word. Now you’re thinking that because I made some sound decisions and stuck to it, that I got what I went after. But that wasn't it, because you can't change what happens on the inside. You just can't start to Love something you've never seen or never experienced first hand. You can stop doing things and you can start doing things *that deal with the hands and actions*, but our emotions and character and demeanor is something completely different. It's who you are and that's what God touches and makes His home for those that have let Him have rein in their lives.
I'm sorry that you never got connected with God. I know that I don't always hear from God, nor do I always feel His presence in prayer. But I know that He hears me. But if I was looking for a sign or for God to have to prove His existence every time I got into prayer I wouldn't be living by faith, I would be living by sight. Jesus told Thomas "blessed are those who believe without seeing"...the Apostle Paul even said that it is impossible to please God without faith.

We live in a world that wants everything handed to them...I see that you took the time to at least seek and study to find an answer...I commend you, most "Christian's" don't go that far which is a shame. But why is it (and this I witness this first hand on a outreach) one young man raised in church and gave himself to church activities and stuff until 17 and then joined the Air force now confesses to be agnostic (sp?), and another young man living just one floor below him. Never raised in church, never subjected to Christian life, and lived a life as a thug in south central L.A. but knows that there is a God and has proof of what God did in his life just before joining the air force and during his life on the streets. He wasn't religious, as in fake (believe me I'm living in the south there is a difference between religion and relationship, I see it daily). I really feel that it deals with the condition of the heart and the motive of our heart, as to if God reveals Him self to us. Jesus said "many will seek but not to obtain" In Timothy Paul said "people will be ever learning and never able to come to the truth".

I don't know you from Adam but I would encourage you to seek diligently for the truth with a whole heart. Acknowledge you’re self as a sinner and pray that God would save you and make Himself real in your life. Then pray that God will show you a church to attend, not to join the heard of religious folks but to find some real born again Christian's and listen to there testimonies of the Living God. I promise, if you come before God in desperation you'll find Him. If you don't, you'll make the bed that you'll lie in.

May peace find you.

talleyJudy · 03-07-2006, 06:28 PM

Joshua, thank you for your kind reply.

The book of Romans is so interesting from many perspectives. I especially like the phrase 'have the law written in their hearts'.

I won't debate you, as I am happy you have found faith that gives you joy.

Peace, along with joy, and I have found each other.

Wishing you health and happiness always,
Judy